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Anybody see the new "ash test" on The Naked Whiz s
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u2plt
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:59 pm    

No Response
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I got no response from Kamado on not only bad ECL, but on something else.
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curly



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 665

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:20 pm    

Re: No Response
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u2plt wrote:
I got no response from Kamado on not only bad ECL, but on something else.


Not at all surprising Rolling Eyes
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Porkchop



Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 237
Location: Champaign, IL (Univ of IL U/C)

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:52 am    

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sam wrote:
If prior behavior is a predictor, I would not be surprised if Richard makes himself the victim here and claims he has been scammed.


and, of course, none of the faithful will recall how he makes it sound like he is personally supervising this stuff, that he can "tweak" it to the specifications of his customers Rolling Eyes
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Nemesis



Joined: 04 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:40 pm    

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Santana wrote:

I am not an expert, though, I just know how to do it



Thats ok, we dont need you to be an expert since RJ will soon claim he invented extruded coconut charcoal Razz
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Santana
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:49 pm    

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Hello

For those who are interested in reading how to make an extruded charcoal and what's the meaning of ash, moisture, etc.

Moisture content
"...There is evidence that charcoal with a high moisture content (10% or more) tends to shatter and produce fines when heated in the blast furnace, making it undesirable in the production of pig iron..."

Volatile matter
"...High volatile charcoal is easy to ignite but may burn with a smoke flame. Low volatile charcoal is difficult to light and burns very cleanly. A good commercial charcoal can have a net volatile matter content - (moisture free) of about 30%. High volatile matter charcoal is less friable than ordinary hard burned low volatile charcoal and so produces less fines during transport and handling. It is also more hygroscopic and thus has a higher natural moisture content...."

Fixed Carbon
"...The fixed carbon content is the most important constituent in metallurgy since it is the fixed carbon which is responsible for reducing the iron oxides of the iron ore to produce metal. But the industrial user must strike a balance between the friable nature of high fixed carbon charcoal and the greater strength of charcoal with a lower fixed carbon and higher volatile matter content to obtain optimum blast furnace operation..."

Ash content
"...The ash content of charcoal varies from about 0.5% to more than 5% depending on the species of wood, the amount of bark included with the wood in the kiln and the amount of earth and sand contamination. Good quality lump charcoal typically has ash content of about 3%. Fine charcoal may have a very high ash content but if material less than 4 mm is screened out the plus 4 mm residue may have an ash content of about 5-10%. Buyers naturally suspect fine charcoal and it is difficult to sell (and use, unfortunately)...."

Also to be considered is heat value and burning time, since this variables will affect the effectiveness of your charcoal.

More from FAO.ORG


The techniques of briquetting
"...Charcoal is a material totally lacking plasticity and hence needs addition of a sticking or agglomerating material to enable a briquette to be formed. The binder should preferably be combustible, though a non-combustible binder effective at low concentrations can be suitable. Starch is preferred as a binder though it is usually expensive. Highly plastic clays are suitable providing not more than about 15% is used. Tar and pitch from coal distillation or from charcoal retorts have been used for special purpose briquettes but they must be carbonised again before use to form a properly bonded briquette. They are of good quality but costly to produce...."

Economics of briquetting
"...The cost of briquetting mainly depends on three factors. The cost of the fine charcoal delivered at the plant ready for processing, the cost of the binder and the incidence of capital costs. Fines which normally have little value, are usually reckoned to have zero cost to justify the briquette plant investment..."

More from FAO.ORG
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Gerard



Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 768

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:48 pm    

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Santana,

This is great stuff. Thanks.

Santana wrote:
...
The techniques of briquetting
"...Charcoal is a material totally lacking plasticity and hence needs addition of a sticking or agglomerating material to enable a briquette to be formed. The binder should preferably be combustible, though a non-combustible binder effective at low concentrations can be suitable. Starch is preferred as a binder though it is usually expensive. Highly plastic clays are suitable providing not more than about 15% is used. Tar and pitch from coal distillation or from charcoal retorts have been used for special purpose briquettes but they must be carbonised again before use to form a properly bonded briquette. They are of good quality but costly to produce...."

Economics of briquetting
"...The cost of briquetting mainly depends on three factors. The cost of the fine charcoal delivered at the plant ready for processing, the cost of the binder and the incidence of capital costs. Fines which normally have little value, are usually reckoned to have zero cost to justify the briquette plant investment..."


I've struggled with the term briquette ever since CEL first appeared on the BBQ scene. CEL is technically a briquette, right? So, you take powdered or granular charcoal and compress it into shape, correct? I.e., you don't carbonize it after the molding process?

When you produce your high quality CEL, do you use a binder? If so, what? I understand if you don't want to reveal trade secrets.

You (and Dennis) have commented that the good CEL is granular and the crappy stuff is powder based... does that mean the crappy stuff is from industrial fines and yours is from carbonized shells that have been crushed/ground to a specific size particle for charcoal production?

Got any photos of CEL production you would be willing to share? The UN document has lots of stuff but nothing that demonstrates the extrusion process.

Thanks for all the info. I find this stuff fascinating. I imagine even the Naked Whiz learns something whenever you post. And if it helps distinguish you from the competition, all the better.
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Santana
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:15 pm    

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Hi Gerard

Here we use a briquette terms as for the looks of the product, while extrude is the process of making the briquettes. Yes, we put carbonized granular with specific size and mix them with a binder (very natural binder. A fruit starch), then we extrude them into a briquette shape.

Good quality one will be using granular, the more granular, the more heat value, longer burning time and less ash. But it will cost you more. As far as I am concerned, there is no manufacturer that will give you 100% granular as a raw material since it is costly. But it you want a very long burning time and highest heat value, then 100% granular is a must.

This type of briquette is kind of new to west part of the world market compared to wooden briquette, so we feel that we need to educate the market that coconut shell is the choice, since it will save the rain forrest and will have a tropical smell (without the essence Very Happy)

There is also bamboo charcoal with a bamboo's oriental smell, but this type of charcoal is not very popular in the west, they are very popular in Japanese market.

If you go to area near the beach, you will find charcoal which is made of coconut shell, otherwise you will find wooden one, especially in Asia.

Maybe you are wondering why there is a hole in the middle of it? That's the secret of the heat value. Pillow shape will not get heat value as high as the one with the hole.

We have been researching this since 1990 with Japenese and Korean researchers, and we are not inventing it, but improving it. What makes it different is just the binder, quality of the shell and the process of extruding it.

If you research a little bit more, there are only two places in the world where coconut shell has the best quality, Sulawesi island and Phillipines.

Hope it helps. I am sorry I couldn't give you the picture of the production process.

Best regards
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curly



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 665

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:38 am    

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Santana,

Good educational stuff, thanks.
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Porkchop



Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 237
Location: Champaign, IL (Univ of IL U/C)

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:01 am    

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yknow, funny thing, was watching foodtv recently, and they showed a japanese family eating a dish that they grilled themselves at table at a restaurant. there was a really good view of the little grill they used on the table top. lo and behold, the extrusion lump was very visible in the grill. neat!
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Santana
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:41 pm    

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fishtail-99 wrote:
Santana, does the charcoal that is made using these hexagonal pipes and glue and so forth, have a hole down the center? Or is it solid? This latest RJ coconut charcoal is so misshapen and crooked, that you wonder if they even let it dry before they took it out of the molds.


Hi Fishtail

I am sorry. I forgot to answer this one.

Yes, it will have a hole in it. Inside the pipe there is a long 1cm diameter wire like ( i dont know what is called in english), this wire is to make the hole in briquette and easier for worker to pull out the briquettes from the pipe when it is dried.

My best bet is that, not dry enough, so the shape is not straight, this is due to the moisture. It's like the wood, it will shrink a bit when the dryness hits the bottom.

So, you might be purchasing a lot of moisture not the briquettes. Moisture content of the briquettes should be around 5-6%, less than 10% is okay though because every warehouse/area has different moisture, etc, etc. But if you get more than 15%, then you should be worry about the seller's integrity.

You can make it 3%, but there will be a problem with the shipping line, they won't carry such goods with a very low moisture content. And since June 2007, this type of goods is categorized as 1st degree dangereous goods by all shipping lines, so not many shipping lines will take this kind of goods. Why, because there were some manufacturers in SE asia that produced a self lighting briquettes and got burned on the ship on the way to destination.


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foxhound
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:20 pm    

More comments about the Klump
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A new thread appeared regarding the lump quality......Richards' answer is priceless. Shocked

Quote:
Problems with New Batch of CEL
Kamado Discussion Forum » The Koal Mine » Using Kamado Charcoal » Problems with New Batch of CEL « Previous Next »


Author Message

Stevew
New member
Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 5:48 pm:

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------
I recently received my shipment of 30 boxes of extruded coconut. I noticed that this coal is shaped differently than my original order two years ago: the old CEL was about 1 3/4" diameter by about 2" long; the new batch is about 1 1/2" diameter and about 3 1/2" long. The old has six ridges at equal intervals around the circumference; the new is smooth. Here are some pictures.

I am noticing that the new coal does not seem to burn nearly as well as the old batch. It has much more fines in the box, seems to burn much faster, and produces a lot more ash. The worst problem is that after burning a bit it gets crumbly and a layer of small pieces and fines builds up at the bottom of the LS -- this makes lighting (with the gas attachment) very difficult and necessitates pulling the LS and shaking it out vigorously.

I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed this and whether Richard can shed any light on the subject. Thanks for your thoughts.

Acrosteve
New member
Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 6:04 pm:

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------
I have read that there appear to be some differences lately.

Richardj
Moderator
Post Number: 2273
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 7:34 pm:

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------
We have increased the length of the briquettes to (1) allow for more weight in the boxes and (2) to make a longer briquette for longer burning. The carbonization of the coconut shells is the same. We pulverize the shells and screen into different sizes for extrusions but the burning characteristics are much the same. We are now extruding and packaging our own KEC and will have more consistency in the briquettes; however coconut charcoal will be coconut charcoal. The btu of 16 pounds of all KEC is much the same whether the coconut comes for Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia or any other country in the “coconut belt”. The carbonated coconut shells are closely government regulated because of the primary end product is filters, so we can be assured of the raw material of quality carbonized coconut shells. Of course, there are a lot of crazy things that can happen after packaging, including leaking containers, crushed boxes and other surprises. Bottom line, I honestly believe it is the best charcoal and at the lowest wholesale price. We have no intention of “SELLING” our KEC, we hope it is a product you will enjoy. Please do not be misled by those who have alternative motives about coconut charcoal.

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Fromthesidelines



Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 3
Location: St. Louis Area

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:30 pm    

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I like the part where he implies the they will start giving it away!

Quote:
Bottom line, I honestly believe it is the best charcoal and at the lowest wholesale price. We have no intention of “SELLING” our KEC, we hope it is a product you will enjoy.


I just hope they don't overcharge for shipping.
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Santana
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:52 pm    

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(1) allow for more weight in the boxes and
(2) to make a longer briquette for longer burning. The carbonization of the coconut shells is the same.

(1). How can that be? The size is a lot bigger than the old one.... 16lbs is 16lbs. You will have 16lbs with hundreds of small briquettes or you will have few briquettes totaling 16lbs.

(2). I don't get it. How can it be longer burning time if you compare to other 16lbs of the old one? If he is comparing piece to piece, then it might be longer, but looking at his product, I am sure the burning time not longer than the old one even though you compare them piece by piece.



The carbonated coconut shells are closely government regulated because of the primary end product is filters, so we can be assured of the raw material of quality carbonized coconut shells

Nope. And definitely not in Indonesia.

Of course, there are a lot of crazy things that can happen after packaging, including leaking containers, crushed boxes and other surprises.
The box won't crush if it has strong briquettes inside the carton box.

however coconut charcoal will be coconut charcoal
Well, not really if you put 50% of binder into it. Or the raw material is not cleaned before used. The raw material will be accidentally mixed with other material if you don't know how to do it.

We pulverize the shells and screen into different sizes for extrusions but the burning characteristics are much the same
Anyone can see from the picture that there is no granular in it. It's all pure powder. You need a sophisticated filter machine to filter out powder.

The btu of 16 pounds of all KEC is much the same whether the coconut comes for Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia or any other country in the “coconut belt”
Nope. powder is powder, granular is granular. How can he compare the powder with 'glue' to make it looks like granular, compare to pure granular?


I honestly believe it is the best charcoal and at the lowest wholesale price

And I believe that this is the worst quality with the lowest production cost ever produced to rip off customers.
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DoubleIPA
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:45 pm    

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Yo Whizzy, could he be talking about you?? hahahahaha

BTW, you gotta love how this con artist is trying to make believe he produces the charcoal. Ridiculous, though it would be par for the course - shitty grills & shitty charcoal!!
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curly



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 665

PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:39 am    

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What a spin doctor...100% grifter Rolling Eyes
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